1st gun

[skydivr7673]

ok, youre looking for a concealable gun? This will be your first gun, right?

First, stay away from Kimber. You dont need to spend that kind of money on your first gun, period. Kimber makes a fine weapon, but thats farther up the line than you should be looking right now.

Second, stay away from a 1911. You want a concealable gun, and a single-stack .45 is not the way to go for several reasons. One thing, a single stack doesnt offer you much firepower. Another, a .45 probably isnt your best choice for self-defense. .45's had a reputation for going through your intended target and into someone else, which is why police departments and military stopped using them years ago. Dont get me wrong, I love 1911's, just not for concealing, self-defense use. I would much rather carry 15 rounds of .40 in a carry weapon than 7 rounds of anything. Just my thought, but I have experience carrying and experience in real-world shooting situations.

Third, stay away from Glock. This will be your first gun, you want a gun with a real safety on it among other things. Some Glocks have what's called an unsupported chamber.....not the best design by any means. And before all the glock fans jump up on this, consider what several police departments have experienced with glock guns--the NYPD alone bought more than 20,000 Model 19's....and has had problems with more than HALF of that number. Issues like stovepipes, double-feeding, and failure to eject. Glock sent NYPD some modified Model 19 pistols back in 2001, and those pistols had problems where the slide wouldnt even fully go into battery after ejecting a spent cartridge, meaning the gun was not ready to fire the next round. Imagine yourself having to rely on that gun for your life.....now, I know that many glock owners have put thousands of rounds through their guns without problems....but I dont know of any other gun maker in recent history that has had this many problems with their guns, and also that has had this many issues when it comes to addressing those problems.

Other police departments have had tons of problems with Glocks as well...Anaheim PD, CA in 2004 had feedway stoppages in Glock 21's and 30's. Baltimore PD had problems with various Glock models. Milwaukee PD just had an officer get wounded in a shootout this week due to his Glock stovepiping a cartridge during a shooting incident. Thats just a couple from memory....

I myself carry a Taurus 24-7 Pro in .40.....15 rounds, accurate as anything, never jammed, FTF'ed or FTE'd on any kind of ammo. It's a bit smaller than a Beretta 92, which is what the military uses as the standard sidearm. It is not a compact gun, but it is also partially polymer so it's lighter. I bought mine brand new in box, with full lifetime warranty, for less than $350. It's the second Taurus handgun I have owned and neither one has ever let me down.

The best way to pick out a gun is to get your hands on it. Seriously. Look for shooting ranges that sell guns--some of them will let you try one out on the range before you buy. That way, you will know for certain what fits your hand and what doesnt. The single most important thing is that the gun fits your hand properly, that you can shoot, eject the mag, etc etc, without having to change your whole grip. If you need to adjust everything away from your shooting grip to reload, then you will have to readjust it all back to shooting grip to fire again--the closer you can stay to that grip the less time it will take to put sights back on target. The greatest gun in the world will be completely useless to you if you cannot grip, aim, and fire comfortably with it. It's always good to ask questions like this, but there's no substitute for getting your hands on the gun. I have prior military combat experience, plus years of gun ownership aside from that. I have experience carrying and sometimes drawing my weapon working bail enforcement. I have owned several handguns, from S&W 629 combat magnum .44 revolver to Desert Eagle .50....you really just need to get your hands on the gun. There are, however, some guns I would avoid....

1--Smith & Wesson Sigma...I dont like any S&W semi-auto pistol, personally, but thats because I used to own a Smith 639 9mm some years ago and it was a piece of junk.

2--Desert Eagle....it's basically a novelty. The thing's huge, and heavy, and carrying one in a drop holster would interfere with many people even being able to bend their knee, lol...at the range, everyone wanted to know what hand-cannon was making all the noise.

3--revolvers.....nowadays, I refuse to bet my life on 6 shots. It's far too easy for a "bad guy" to get his hands on more firepower, and youre at a disadvantage in a shooting fight if youre out of ammo first. Now, revolvers are about the most trouble-free shooters out there, but I dont want to have to reload with speedloaders in the middle of a incident.

4--ANYTHING made by Jennings. They make several "pocket pistols".....these are worthless.

[Shawn]

Great post Sky. Not all LEO's have quit carrying Glocks or .45 cal for that matter though, thats the standard issue for our Sheriffs Dept here. It does have a tendency to overpenetrate the target though. IRC SWAT also carries the UMP-45 and it makes for a better price on ammo when two of your guns your dept carries are chambered in .45 cal.

The 24/7 that he is talking about is an awesome gun, that was my first choice as a sidearm when I was qualifying but I was able to find a Beretta 92G with a ton of mods for a price I couldnt pass by. I would definately look into Taurus though, the PT92 and the 24/7 are great guns and though Taurus had issues with reliability in the past it seems to be just that - In the past. I know quite a few Deputys that are carrying Taurus off duty now.

[skydivr7673]

yeah, sorry if it sounded like I said all LE stopped carrying the .45, that wasnt my intention.

funny that you mentioned the PT92, thats the other taurus that I have. Holds 17 rounds of 9mm, plus it has a decocking lever/ambi safety that the M9 didnt have. Got that one at a gun show, brand new in box, for just under 300. I like the 24-7 much better though.

[Shawn]

My firearms instructor had a PT92, damn good Beretta knock off. Funny thing about them is he couldnt insert a Beretta mag in his Taurus and have it catch but I could insert a Taurus mag in my Beretta and it caught no problem. My Beretta is an old goverment issue model and doesnt have a safety on it, just a decocker.

[RotorheadFred]

thanks a ton sky. good friggin post. I've fired a few guns. Glock was ok it didn't fit my hand well. fired a few revolvers. dont really know what all i have fired. wasn't thinking of getting a gun at the times when i have. so didn't bother to remember.

[Steel]

(05-16-2009 01:47 PM)skydivr7673 Wrote: Guests cannot see links in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see links.ok, youre looking for a concealable gun? This will be your first gun, right?

First, stay away from Kimber. You dont need to spend that kind of money on your first gun, period. Kimber makes a fine weapon, but thats farther up the line than you should be looking right now.

Agreed, and the small 1911's have problems.

Quote:Second, stay away from a 1911. You want a concealable gun, and a single-stack .45 is not the way to go for several reasons. One thing, a single stack doesnt offer you much firepower. Another, a .45 probably isnt your best choice for self-defense. .45's had a reputation for going through your intended target and into someone else, which is why police departments and military stopped using them years ago. Dont get me wrong, I love 1911's, just not for concealing, self-defense use. I would much rather carry 15 rounds of .40 in a carry weapon than 7 rounds of anything. Just my thought, but I have experience carrying and experience in real-world shooting situations.

Meh. If you use HP's like you sohuld be in a defenseive pistol, they won't be sailing through the target. A FMJ 9mm or .40 is more likely to, but HP's are designed not to.

Quote:Third, stay away from Glock. This will be your first gun, you want a gun with a real safety on it among other things. Some Glocks have what's called an unsupported chamber.....not the best design by any means. And before all the glock fans jump up on this, consider what several police departments have experienced with glock guns--the NYPD alone bought more than 20,000 Model 19's....and has had problems with more than HALF of that number. Issues like stovepipes, double-feeding, and failure to eject. Glock sent NYPD some modified Model 19 pistols back in 2001, and those pistols had problems where the slide wouldnt even fully go into battery after ejecting a spent cartridge, meaning the gun was not ready to fire the next round. Imagine yourself having to rely on that gun for your life.....now, I know that many glock owners have put thousands of rounds through their guns without problems....but I dont know of any other gun maker in recent history that has had this many problems with their guns, and also that has had this many issues when it comes to addressing those problems.

Other police departments have had tons of problems with Glocks as well...Anaheim PD, CA in 2004 had feedway stoppages in Glock 21's and 30's. Baltimore PD had problems with various Glock models. Milwaukee PD just had an officer get wounded in a shootout this week due to his Glock stovepiping a cartridge during a shooting incident. Thats just a couple from memory....

No comment. Never was a huge fan of Glocks, because the idea of a "safety system" that was designed to disengage by pulling the trigger never computed logically in my brain.

Quote:I myself carry a Taurus 24-7 Pro in .40.....15 rounds, accurate as anything, never jammed, FTF'ed or FTE'd on any kind of ammo. It's a bit smaller than a Beretta 92, which is what the military uses as the standard sidearm. It is not a compact gun, but it is also partially polymer so it's lighter. I bought mine brand new in box, with full lifetime warranty, for less than $350. It's the second Taurus handgun I have owned and neither one has ever let me down.

Ive heard good and bad things about Taurus. I guess they've gotten better in recent years.

Quote:The best way to pick out a gun is to get your hands on it. Seriously. Look for shooting ranges that sell guns--some of them will let you try one out on the range before you buy. That way, you will know for certain what fits your hand and what doesnt. The single most important thing is that the gun fits your hand properly, that you can shoot, eject the mag, etc etc, without having to change your whole grip. If you need to adjust everything away from your shooting grip to reload, then you will have to readjust it all back to shooting grip to fire again--the closer you can stay to that grip the less time it will take to put sights back on target. The greatest gun in the world will be completely useless to you if you cannot grip, aim, and fire comfortably with it. It's always good to ask questions like this, but there's no substitute for getting your hands on the gun. I have prior military combat experience, plus years of gun ownership aside from that. I have experience carrying and sometimes drawing my weapon working bail enforcement. I have owned several handguns, from S&W 629 combat magnum .44 revolver to Desert Eagle .50....you really just need to get your hands on the gun. There are, however, some guns I would avoid....

Werd.

Quote:3--revolvers.....nowadays, I refuse to bet my life on 6 shots. It's far too easy for a "bad guy" to get his hands on more firepower, and youre at a disadvantage in a shooting fight if youre out of ammo first. Now, revolvers are about the most trouble-free shooters out there, but I dont want to have to reload with speedloaders in the middle of a incident.

Meh. 99% of defensive shootings (for citizens) are over in 3 shots or less. 2 of those usually miss. I personally carry a 5 shot .357 and I don't feel undergunned. If 5 shots aren't enough, would 15 be? Howabout 30?
Remember the old addage: "Pistols are used to get to your rifle". If you're facing 5 badguys all packing heat, it doesn't matter how many rounds you're carrying, you're gonna get shot.

Quote:4--ANYTHING made by Jennings. They make several "pocket pistols".....these are worthless.

Double werd.

[skydivr7673]

Quote:Meh. If you use HP's like you sohuld be in a defenseive pistol, they won't be sailing through the target. A FMJ 9mm or .40 is more likely to, but HP's are designed not to.

Well that goes without saying, but 45's still have more of a tendency to cause unwanted damage than smaller calibers. I personally carry Speer God Dot HP's for personal defense. Keep this in mind--if you shoot .45 and youre using a 230-grain JHP round for personal defense, youre still running a higher risk of overpenetration than you should be. Hollow-point or not, thats the fact. Thats why you would be so much better off carrying something like the 185 grain JHP Gold Dots. Hollow-points are definitely not the only concern when it comes to this issue.

Quote:Ive heard good and bad things about Taurus. I guess they've gotten better in recent years.

I know they have had a bit of trouble with their millenium series pistols, but I do believe that they have overcome those as well. My only issue with Taurus is the fact that they sell Rossi revolvers as well---from what I know about those I would never buy one. You cannot beat the price and you certainly cannot beat the warranty.

Quote:Meh. 99% of defensive shootings (for citizens) are over in 3 shots or less. 2 of those usually miss. I personally carry a 5 shot .357 and I don't feel undergunned. If 5 shots aren't enough, would 15 be? Howabout 30?
Remember the old addage: "Pistols are used to get to your rifle". If you're facing 5 badguys all packing heat, it doesn't matter how many rounds you're carrying, you're gonna get shot.

I have an old adage of my own....

"It's always better to have something and not need it than to need it and not have it."

For one thing, my experience has not been strictly civilian, so I guess that factors in heavily in my thinking. But at the same time, look at the studies--how many times have we seen studies that show how it's entirely possible to shoot someone 5 times in the torso without incapacitating them? And that's with one intruder, what if there are two, or three? The odds are that you wont ever need 15 rounds, I get that. But what if you did? What would happen with your wheelgun then? We all know that the "double-tap, two in the chest, one in the head" so-called "tactical" bit is nonsense for the average gun owner. Simply put, if I ever get into a situation where 5 rounds wont be enough, I have it covered. Do you? Is it wise to recommend to other gun owners that they be prepared only to a similar level? Let's also face this fact---most gun owners will never have to pull the trigger in a real-world shooting situation, and thank God for that. But that alone doesnt stop people from getting and carrying guns for defense, right? Those people are playing against the odds when they get a gun for defense--chances are that most of them will never have to use it for that purpose. But they do it anyways. And now, youre playing with the odds on how many rounds to carry? Sounds a bit contradictory, actually.

Everyone by now knows of Joe Horn, the old guy from Texas who shot those two burglars in broad daylight--and got away with it. This took place last fall, maybe November or so. He approached the two suspects as they were leaving his neighbor's house. Shot one as he was running away from him, across the street. Shot the other as he was also running away, and that one was even further away when Horn shot. Here's the thing--what happens to your "99% are over in 3 shots" when you are now dealing with two "bad guys" instead of one? That would leave your 5-shot .357 a bullet short....no?

I dont advocate people loading up like Rambo, but I DO advocate people preparing themselves within reason. Having 15 rounds obviously doesnt mean you must use all 15 rounds.....but you just dont ever know what situation you will find yourself in. A good example--after hurricane katrina down here, there were groups of 5-10 guys walking the streets, trying to steal people's cars and loot their houses. There were people in New Orleans shooting at cops and soldiers. Clearly, the "average encounter" was gone out the window at that point. If you are approached by a few guys, and you decide you need to shoot to protect yourself, with 5 shots you can take down a couple of them, right? So, when their friends, now pissed at you for killing their boys, see you trying to reload, how safe did your gun make you as they come at you?

Hey, that's real-world down here. I know it isnt everywhere, but that doesnt change the old adage....

"It's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it...."

[Steel]

I guess in the end it depends on how safe one feels with what they carry. If my 5 (well, 15 really, 2 speedloaders) rounds of .357 aren't enough... oh well. And as far as reloading them, I'm not Jerry Miculek, but I can reload them pretty quick.

[Tofuball]

I'm on the wheelgun pad too, my first gun is the 7 shot S&W 686P, kinda expensive, some might rather get a Ruger GP101 with some trigger work.

I like moon clips more then speed loaders, but I really don't want to cut up my pretty gun

[dg123]

(05-17-2009 08:33 PM)skydivr7673 Wrote: Guests cannot see links in the messages. Please register to forum by clicking here to see links.Everyone by now knows of Joe Horn, the old guy from Texas who shot those two burglars in broad daylight--and got away with it. This took place last fall, maybe November or so. He approached the two suspects as they were leaving his neighbor's house. Shot one as he was running away from him, across the street. Shot the other as he was also running away, and that one was even further away when Horn shot. Here's the thing--what happens to your "99% are over in 3 shots" when you are now dealing with two "bad guys" instead of one? That would leave your 5-shot .357 a bullet short....no?

Weren't the perps brought down with two shots from a 12ga? I see what you're saying, but that's kind of a bad example to strengthen your argument